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Bookup Support
Technical Help and Ideas for Bookup Programs
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theHerbinator
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 Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:04 pm Post subject: Bookup 2000 - the case for continued development |
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| MikeLeahy, in Post #2878 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:23 am, wrote: | | There is no plan to issue updates to Bookup 2000. |
The Bookup User Community is not well served by the implications of this announcement. If our developer has no plan to issue updates to Bookup 2000, I think that the Bookup User Community should debate the merits of creating such a plan.
I have always been fascinated by the fact that Mike Leahy makes his source code available for purchase, and that he encourages the participation of fellow chess programmers in efforts to "create products that complement and/or enhance Bookup".
| The Welcome Programmers Page wrote: | | The program uses third party libraries. BTree Filer 5.5x is used for a database engine. Orpheus 3 is used for GUI enhancements. Both are free (with source) from sourceforge and both libraries were originally made by TurboPower. The graphics library used in the 3D diagram is FastGraph from Ted Gruber. It is not free and it does not come with source code. |
I have also been fascinated with the fact that the critical third party libraries are free (with source).
If the use of expensive third party libraries in the COW versions is justified from a developer's viewpoint (I have a major rant - another place, another time - concerning my conviction that these expensive third party libraries are the primary cause of the developmental halt on the COW versions) this use is also a bucket of ice water down the shirt of any budding fellow chess programmers with ideas for a better Bookup.
Ideas for a better Bookup abound. For example, the Theory Machine and its requirements constitute a fertile ground for a Bookup that actually improves the chess analysis abilities of Bookup Users. Additionally, bugs abound in Bookup 2000 and the Bookup User Community would benefit enormously from fixes in many directions. For example, as COW fixes to Bookup 2000 bugs are announced, it is extremely discouraging to think that something as important as Backsolving would remain broken in Bookup 2000 for eternity.
In an ideal situation for the User Community, Bookup 2000 would be the environment for continued development of ideas and the future of COW would include incorporation of these ideas in the enhanced GUI with its multimedia capabilities.
Imagine this scenario. Theory Machine breakthroughs are so significant that all ChessBase users require Bookup 2000 to complete their Chess Workstation and utilize these breakthroughs. This could not be a bad thing for Mike Leahy, and would probably make him rich. Theory Machine eBook development becomes the dominant method of authorship for Opening Theory studies. The Middle Game Planning capabilities that become available due to these Theory Machine breakthroughs eventually become the dominant feature of a ChessBase/Bookup linkage of products.
I intend that this Topic advocate the case for continued development of Bookup 2000, but views to the contrary are welcome (they may be rebutted  ).
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kblaine
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Joined: 15 Sep 2005
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Location: Akron, OH
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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If I understand theHerbinator’s plans, his hopes for enhancing our capabilities rest solely with Bookup because the COW source code will not be available or not robust in the near future. If true it is very unfortunate for those who might appreciate his enhancements. But I can understand Mike’s reluctance to support two very similar products. Especially since he offered lower prices (I don’t recall the specifics) for COW to owners of Bookup, which is not to ignore how long several of his earliest subscribers had to wait after the fact.
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Ken
I was once conceited but now have no faults. |
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jott27
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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The push for a continuation of Bookup2000 development by theHerbinator is a noble one and assuming available development time I would fully support it.
However, to be realistic, I prefer to see Mike's effort directed towards the continual betterment of COW. There are hardly enough reasons to assume that in the long run COW could not incorporate the desirable features of Bookup2000 and still carry on with the good features of COW as well. To split up Mike's effort into two similar product would just have the negative effect of longer delays.
TheHerbinators ideas of incorporating his Theory Machine concepts could be realized if he could come to an agreement with Mike on a private basis. He probably would have a better chance to see his ideas realized, than he would have by using source code for Bookup2000 to proceed on his own.
John |
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theHerbinator
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Location: 48.719153° N, -122.504924° W
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: ...more case... |
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| kblaine wrote: | | If I understand theHerbinator’s plans, his hopes for enhancing our capabilities rest solely with Bookup because the COW source code will not be available or not robust in the near future. |
To set the stage for some clarification ...
| MikeLeahy, on Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:40 pm, in Post #1825 wrote: | | It's not possible to release COW as open source, as it is based on some rather expensive libraries that in turn have no plans to release open source versions. In the past I have sold the Bookup source code along with support at the source code level, but the end user either had to also purchase the supporting libraries or remove the functions that require them. Extreme proficiency in Delphi was also a must. |
Based on these and other words from Mike Leahy, it has long been my understanding that the Bookup 2000 source code could be released as Open Source, as all of the supporting libraries (except 3D Graphics) have already been released as Open Source. On the other hand, COW relies on supporting libraries that cost many thousands of dollars which completely rules out any Open Source potential for COW.
My hopes for enhancing the capabilities of our Position Database lie in the potential for Open Source development in Bookup 2000 and/or proprietary development in the low cost environment of Bookup 2000. By low cost, I mean $200 for the Bookup 2000 source code and a few hundred more for the appropriate version of Delphi.
| MikeLeahy (as guest) on Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:50 pm, in Post #1829 wrote: |
| theHerbinator wrote: |
You say "In the past" and I need to ask "Are you going to sell the COW source code with support in the future?" |
I think so. Remind me after the dust settles and I'll do it. |
Mike Leahy also says that he will sell the COW source code after "the dust settles", but that will be of little use to anyone who would not commit to the many thousands it would take to purchase the supporting libraries.
| kblaine wrote: | | [ If true it is very unfortunate for those who might appreciate his enhancements. |
While (as I have attempted to explained) not true, I really do have a working Theory Machine implementation that the Bookup User Community would likely get very excited about if I coughed up the details. It works today, and is not based on new code. I do hope to bring about circumstances under which everyone benefits from some insights I have acquired since my studies on this subject commenced.
| kblaine wrote: | | But I can understand Mike’s reluctance to support two very similar products. |
Within limits (bug fixes to important features like Backsolving are inexcusable if left for eternity in Bookup 2000), I am not suggesting that Mike Leahy continue development of Bookup 2000. I am suggesting, however, that this continued development would be extremely worthwhile if it was carried on by interested members of the Bookup User Community.
| kblaine wrote: | | ...which is not to ignore how long several of his earliest subscribers had to wait after the fact. |
I purchased Bookup Super Dooper 1-1/2 years ago, and still have not received anything that remotely resembles the product I was promised. The notion of "had to wait" is not near as accurate as "still waiting".
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theHerbinator
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Location: 48.719153° N, -122.504924° W
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: ...more case... |
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| jott27 wrote: | The push for a continuation of Bookup2000 development by theHerbinator is a noble one and assuming available development time I would fully support it.
However, to be realistic, I prefer to see Mike's effort directed towards the continual betterment of COW. |
I continue my comments here assuming the reader has already read my reply to Ken's last Post in this Topic.
Short of some bug fixes, I am not expecting Mike Leahy to expend any effort on Bookup 2000. What I am suggesting is that Bookup 2000 would be the correct development environment for interested members of the Bookup User Community to utilize to get some enhancements to the Position Database that increased usability.
Since Mike Leahy commenced with Position Database development some 25 years ago, his contribution has been enormous. However, it is time for many of us to ask "what have you done lately" and to ponder the possibility that we are all being held hostage to a "one-man-band". By "all", I mean John and Ken, Susan Polgar, Paul Azzuro, myself and even Mike Leahy.
This band needs more players.
| jott27 wrote: | TheHerbinators ideas of incorporating his Theory Machine concepts could be realized if he could come to an agreement with Mike on a private basis. He probably would have a better chance to see his ideas realized, than he would have by using source code for Bookup2000 to proceed on his own.
John |
I am not convinced that a "private basis agreement" is doable. I am interested, and have privately expended a considerable effort on expressing my interest.
Ideas from non-titled players do not seem to be valued sufficiently here, and this has lead to alternative approaches like Stefan Renzewitz's expression of his ideas in Chess Position Trainer.
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jott27
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:04 am Post subject: |
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Here are a few thoughts for consideration.
First of all I am an enthusiastic user of the Linux operating system. It is entirely based on open source software. Over the years I made a few observations that are also applicable to any plans of using open source code for enhancement of Bookup in the manner that theHerbinator advocates.
Let us start with the source code of Bookup. As you all know this software was written solely by one developer who's main thrust was to get this software into the market place.
I doubt it very much that at the time he spent much thought to have the source code available as a marketable product as well.
The problem with "one man band" developers is the lack of comments and documentation. Big companies have severe guide lines in place that force this type of documentation. If you ever happened to be in such a position, you might recognize the nuisance factor.
Without proper comments and documentation source code is next to useless for anyone else than the developer himself.
Next comes the "free" libraries. These libraries are frequently updated and in turn are based on other "free" software (e.g compilers). Bookup2000 is several years old and the software is based on the libraries that were current at the time. Even if you have the source code now, you might have great difficulties to obtain the versions of support libraries that are required. Free libraries don't maintain obsolete versions over long periods.
If just one or two instances of the source code would require a specific version of one support software you might have a real fun time to make even the unmodified software compile properly.
Next is the issue of cooperative effort of a number of interested people. Even with our modern type of communications tools, it would not be easy to get only 2 or 3 people together to share in such a project.
I hope that my words are not to be construed as negative criticism, all I want is to have some realism be considered before much energy is wasted.
John |
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theHerbinator
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Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 736
Location: 48.719153° N, -122.504924° W
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 4:26 pm Post subject: Imagine this scenario |
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| theHerbinator wrote: | | Imagine this scenario. Theory Machine breakthroughs are so significant that all ChessBase users require Bookup 2000 to complete their Chess Workstation and utilize these breakthroughs. This could not be a bad thing for Mike Leahy, and would probably make him rich. Theory Machine eBook development becomes the dominant method of authorship for Opening Theory studies. The Middle Game Planning capabilities that become available due to these Theory Machine breakthroughs eventually become the dominant feature of a ChessBase/Bookup linkage of products. |
I am hopeful that this Post will invigorate this Topic, "Bookup 2000 - the case for continued development", and that the Bookup User Community will re-engage with me in the discussion that I started here one year ago.
Except for the last few days, I have been absent from our Bulletin Board (as a contributor) for nearly a year. That last engagement was brief and followed a prior 6 month hiatus that began after the COW beta-test period. Prior to that, I obtained significant personal satisfaction by posting here regularly. This satisfaction was most enjoyable when I attempted to follow Phillip's lead and specialize in providing content for this Bulletin Board, while regarding support as a secondary endeavor.
That said, I have remained engaged in my life's #1 fascination, basically 24/7, for that entire time period. That #1 fascination is the joy I experience from the pursuit of Theory Machine breakthroughs.
The experimentation necessary for this pursuit has necessarily, and primarily, involved eBook authorship. The latest breakthrough that I have come by (this happened about Christmas time 2008) leaves me convinced that I now have a ChessBase/Bookup linkage of products that is viable independently of any cooperation from the developers of either of those product families.
The eBooks that I have authored are the "proof of concept" vehicle that can authenticate the claim that is inherent in these remarks.
My readers may expect to see dozens of scattered Posts that I will be making in an attempt to draw together a number of issues that need to be resolved before I am comfortable discussing concepts that involve trade secrets. "My secrets", if you will.
I maintain that a ChessBase/Bookup linkage of products is possible in ways that have not been discovered by other investigators, and that this linkage makes possible a "Theory Machine Implementation" that far surpasses anything else under consideration. My goal is to make Grandmaster Class authoring opportunities available to the Untitled Chess Enthusiast, and my hope is that Untitled Chess Authors, thus enabled, will create the defining "body of work" in the Chess Openings sector. My desire is to share my findings openly with the Bookup User Community, while preserving the intellectual propery rignts to which I am entitled.
I am anxious to get the Bulletin Board's software working correctly again. Access to "Profiles" is currently broken. When that is repaired, it will be easy, for those interested, to follow the chain of ideas that will be scattered thoughout Categories and Topics all over the Bulletin Board as a result of my latest effort.
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~jott27 |
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